"but I’m not sure who the audience is actually supposed to be. Because it’s so idealistic that it doesn’t really offer any comfort to someone who might be struggling with coming out.”-
This is the elephant in the room.
I stumbled across the genre of "gay" media written by and for women in a search for something which reflects my own life experiences of falling in love with another man. I am much less ambivalent about (as another commentor terms it) the queasiness they cause me. I find they often read/watch as straight love stories reskinned with two men, and there are an identifiable recurrent series of stereotypes, similar to those in Yaoi. In my opinion these are not authentic representations, they are not reflective of gay lives, and I am an concerned that using gay lives as an entertainment form for straight women is not a positive development for us.
I agree with the gaslighting characterisation.
I think there are two reasons it feels like this to me:
They are presented as authentic yet they are not, due to the author's lack of awareness. This inauthenticity is not identified by the vast majority of the audience who are not gay.
They are big events, created by and promoted by mainstream media. They present this as their contribution to their gay audiences, this is their contribution to diversity, this is their offering "for us". Yet I don't find this to be a contribution and we are not the intended audience.
The problem these "lies" cause is both when i watch it, as it rings untrue, but more so later; when I go to work or speak with friends. Some will gush about how great it is, they expect me to feel the same, that I will love it and be ? grateful ? for the representation They do not want to hear that there are issues with the portrayal, they can't see or understand them. And there it is! That odd sense of disconnection with the mainstream that being gay brings ... their response to the story's inauthenticity causes one of the experiences which the story is unable to represent.
Instead i just nod along and agree that this latest straight woman's fantasy about what it is like to be a gay teenager is indeed the best thing ever, and I love it. We are used to covering up how we feel anyway ...
Perhaps harsh, and a few steps down the road from your position, but I am disquieted about the mainstreaming of this kind of story telling. Imagine another genre of stories written by the dominant majority about black/muslim/trans/disabled people, but written for the entertainment of the dominant majority, and do the mental test to see if that is a good development...
Thanks so much for this comment - I tend to start writing unsure of where I stand on the subject at hand (which is why pretty much all my pieces have quite ambivalent “conclusions”). So when people take the time to write thoughtful responses like yours, it really makes me reflect even further. I agree with everything you’ve said here, I think, and thanks for adding an extra layer for me to consider!
This articulates *so precisely* my complicated feelings about Heartstopper (including your addendum about the creator in the comments) that I don’t have anything to add except THANK YOU. It can feel very lonely to contain in oneself both the intended feelings of the show AND some serious misgivings about this cultural upswell of utopian queer futurism. It isn’t that I want to dwell on gay suffering (though of course I adore BROKEBACK because it finds a sweetness that is so grounded in that reality) but that I want the art that I love to reflect back the complex truth of being alive. I think of The Power of the Dog, God’s Own Country, Carol — Tom at the Farm, which I love So Much even though it’s drenched with internalized homophobia, because the art makes joy out of it — all these pieces paint deeply specific situations that feel REAL, true to our often hostile world, but also find hope that feels even more real because of that. I think maybe the Heartstopper queasiness I’ve never been able to properly comprehend until now is also partially about its explicit intention to encapsulate an entire world view, an entire generation, a completely inclusive space (which is therefore self-contained and therefore painfully incomplete and unsatisfying), while the things I really love only ever take on a tiny slice of specificity and therefore contain far, far more truth… in my opinion. But, like you say, I’m glad Heartstopper exists and of course I felt myself cringingly grinning many times (especially during the first season… the second goes much further down this track and loses me even more). Then again, as you allude to, I’ve never understood not taking homophobia into one’s own body, as Charlie seems to not do. I think this IS a truth for some people, who grew up loved enough before queerness came into it, that the hate really does come only from outside. Anyway thank you so much… your perspective is, for me, whatever the opposite of gaslighting is. <— [And I said I didn’t have anything to add 😅]
I love your friend's observation: "I’m not sure who the audience is actually supposed to be. Because it’s so idealistic that it doesn’t really offer any comfort to someone who might be struggling with coming out."
My take is that twee, idealised teen gay romances like Heartstopper etc. are selling gay kids on a lie. It's just not like that. The whole sanitised "#LoveWins", "Love Is Love" thing is tackled pretty well in "Bros", when Billy Eichner's character says "'Love is love' is a lie we had to make up to convince you idiots to treat us fairly. Love is not love. Our relationships are different. Our sex lives are different." Heartstopper bears no resemblance to the reality of gay dating and gay relationships, let alone gay adolescence. As you say, it's "false and anaemic; a litany of comforting bromides". It's basically Western yaoi. While I know a lot of gay guys who like the show, I'd class it as part of a broader media landscape of gay male stories written by women for women, that are often either idealised (Heartstopper) or fetishised (A Little Life) and generally tell you more about the author's desires and projections than the reality of gay life.
For the record, at my high school in Cheshire in the mid-1990s, gay sex WAS included in our sex education (in Year 9), but I think that's because we had a particularly progressive RE/PSE teacher. He also told us about being sexually abused by his father - we were all shocked, but of course the reason he told us that was so that if anyone in the class were being abused, they'd feel able to confide in him.
"Why should I even feel “pride” about something I had no hand in, and which I’m not (or certainly wasn’t) exactly thrilled about anyway?" Love this admission. I often joke that the worst thing about being gay in the West in 2023 is you're supposed to enjoy it.
Thanks for this! Yeah the reason I felt moved to write this is because there were so many pieces in the media by gay men, around my age or older, saying "if only this had existed when I was ten or eleven" (or whatever age). And I I understand that reaction and kind of agree. But I think it's deeper than that: as you say, it's really selling a lie (albeit with good intentions probably.)
I also didn't know it was written by a woman initially – and I certainly didn't know she was asexual. I didn't make too big a deal out of that because I'm not sure how I feel about the whole "who is allowed to write about who etc" discourse. But finding this out did make me think, "okay, this is actually a show based on the premise: what if there was no homophobia in the world and everyone was loving & kind etc". And also, this person has never experiences homophobia obviously, and certainly has no clue what it's like to be a 16 year old gay kid. That's fine, I guess – and maybe it's helpful to some extent, just wishing something into reality. But I have my doubts.
It feels like a lie (like I'm being gaslit – and I don't use that word lightly). I also happen to think that it just *is* fucking hard growing up gay, even if you don't experience much homophobia. It is intrinsically a difficult thing to navigate and eventually accept. Homophobia makes that worse, sure – but the self hatred is often still there regardless.
You have to "come out" over and over and over again, your dating pool is, by definition, much smaller, and you have to be vigilant in public spaces. Things are better than they were but you never know if someone is gonna kick off or start screaming "faggot" at you just for holding hands (never mind kissing) your boyfriend or girlfriend. These things still happen pretty frequently. Both in London and Bristol (liberal cities that I've spent most of my life living in).
Really appreciate your feedback and engagement! And "the worst thing about being gay in the West in 2023 is you're supposed to enjoy it" is a fucking great line hahahahaha.
And Bros is such a good film – I properly love it. Apart from the bit at the end when he sings that country ballad to Aaron (or whatever his name is – the jock). That's a bit too saccharine for me tbh. But apart from that it deals with all these issues deftly and with humour.
Interesting to hear about your experience of sex ed as well. It was just never mentioned (except when other pupils made jokes about it). And I'm not sure why tbh. I don't think anyone was "out" at my secondary school, maybe one guy.
"but I’m not sure who the audience is actually supposed to be. Because it’s so idealistic that it doesn’t really offer any comfort to someone who might be struggling with coming out.”-
This is the elephant in the room.
I stumbled across the genre of "gay" media written by and for women in a search for something which reflects my own life experiences of falling in love with another man. I am much less ambivalent about (as another commentor terms it) the queasiness they cause me. I find they often read/watch as straight love stories reskinned with two men, and there are an identifiable recurrent series of stereotypes, similar to those in Yaoi. In my opinion these are not authentic representations, they are not reflective of gay lives, and I am an concerned that using gay lives as an entertainment form for straight women is not a positive development for us.
I agree with the gaslighting characterisation.
I think there are two reasons it feels like this to me:
They are presented as authentic yet they are not, due to the author's lack of awareness. This inauthenticity is not identified by the vast majority of the audience who are not gay.
They are big events, created by and promoted by mainstream media. They present this as their contribution to their gay audiences, this is their contribution to diversity, this is their offering "for us". Yet I don't find this to be a contribution and we are not the intended audience.
The problem these "lies" cause is both when i watch it, as it rings untrue, but more so later; when I go to work or speak with friends. Some will gush about how great it is, they expect me to feel the same, that I will love it and be ? grateful ? for the representation They do not want to hear that there are issues with the portrayal, they can't see or understand them. And there it is! That odd sense of disconnection with the mainstream that being gay brings ... their response to the story's inauthenticity causes one of the experiences which the story is unable to represent.
Instead i just nod along and agree that this latest straight woman's fantasy about what it is like to be a gay teenager is indeed the best thing ever, and I love it. We are used to covering up how we feel anyway ...
Perhaps harsh, and a few steps down the road from your position, but I am disquieted about the mainstreaming of this kind of story telling. Imagine another genre of stories written by the dominant majority about black/muslim/trans/disabled people, but written for the entertainment of the dominant majority, and do the mental test to see if that is a good development...
Thanks so much for this comment - I tend to start writing unsure of where I stand on the subject at hand (which is why pretty much all my pieces have quite ambivalent “conclusions”). So when people take the time to write thoughtful responses like yours, it really makes me reflect even further. I agree with everything you’ve said here, I think, and thanks for adding an extra layer for me to consider!
Cheers,
Stefan
This articulates *so precisely* my complicated feelings about Heartstopper (including your addendum about the creator in the comments) that I don’t have anything to add except THANK YOU. It can feel very lonely to contain in oneself both the intended feelings of the show AND some serious misgivings about this cultural upswell of utopian queer futurism. It isn’t that I want to dwell on gay suffering (though of course I adore BROKEBACK because it finds a sweetness that is so grounded in that reality) but that I want the art that I love to reflect back the complex truth of being alive. I think of The Power of the Dog, God’s Own Country, Carol — Tom at the Farm, which I love So Much even though it’s drenched with internalized homophobia, because the art makes joy out of it — all these pieces paint deeply specific situations that feel REAL, true to our often hostile world, but also find hope that feels even more real because of that. I think maybe the Heartstopper queasiness I’ve never been able to properly comprehend until now is also partially about its explicit intention to encapsulate an entire world view, an entire generation, a completely inclusive space (which is therefore self-contained and therefore painfully incomplete and unsatisfying), while the things I really love only ever take on a tiny slice of specificity and therefore contain far, far more truth… in my opinion. But, like you say, I’m glad Heartstopper exists and of course I felt myself cringingly grinning many times (especially during the first season… the second goes much further down this track and loses me even more). Then again, as you allude to, I’ve never understood not taking homophobia into one’s own body, as Charlie seems to not do. I think this IS a truth for some people, who grew up loved enough before queerness came into it, that the hate really does come only from outside. Anyway thank you so much… your perspective is, for me, whatever the opposite of gaslighting is. <— [And I said I didn’t have anything to add 😅]
Thank you so much for this – I really appreciate you reading and sharing your own thoughts, which have provoked further reflections of my own! x
I love your friend's observation: "I’m not sure who the audience is actually supposed to be. Because it’s so idealistic that it doesn’t really offer any comfort to someone who might be struggling with coming out."
My take is that twee, idealised teen gay romances like Heartstopper etc. are selling gay kids on a lie. It's just not like that. The whole sanitised "#LoveWins", "Love Is Love" thing is tackled pretty well in "Bros", when Billy Eichner's character says "'Love is love' is a lie we had to make up to convince you idiots to treat us fairly. Love is not love. Our relationships are different. Our sex lives are different." Heartstopper bears no resemblance to the reality of gay dating and gay relationships, let alone gay adolescence. As you say, it's "false and anaemic; a litany of comforting bromides". It's basically Western yaoi. While I know a lot of gay guys who like the show, I'd class it as part of a broader media landscape of gay male stories written by women for women, that are often either idealised (Heartstopper) or fetishised (A Little Life) and generally tell you more about the author's desires and projections than the reality of gay life.
For the record, at my high school in Cheshire in the mid-1990s, gay sex WAS included in our sex education (in Year 9), but I think that's because we had a particularly progressive RE/PSE teacher. He also told us about being sexually abused by his father - we were all shocked, but of course the reason he told us that was so that if anyone in the class were being abused, they'd feel able to confide in him.
"Why should I even feel “pride” about something I had no hand in, and which I’m not (or certainly wasn’t) exactly thrilled about anyway?" Love this admission. I often joke that the worst thing about being gay in the West in 2023 is you're supposed to enjoy it.
Thanks for this! Yeah the reason I felt moved to write this is because there were so many pieces in the media by gay men, around my age or older, saying "if only this had existed when I was ten or eleven" (or whatever age). And I I understand that reaction and kind of agree. But I think it's deeper than that: as you say, it's really selling a lie (albeit with good intentions probably.)
I also didn't know it was written by a woman initially – and I certainly didn't know she was asexual. I didn't make too big a deal out of that because I'm not sure how I feel about the whole "who is allowed to write about who etc" discourse. But finding this out did make me think, "okay, this is actually a show based on the premise: what if there was no homophobia in the world and everyone was loving & kind etc". And also, this person has never experiences homophobia obviously, and certainly has no clue what it's like to be a 16 year old gay kid. That's fine, I guess – and maybe it's helpful to some extent, just wishing something into reality. But I have my doubts.
It feels like a lie (like I'm being gaslit – and I don't use that word lightly). I also happen to think that it just *is* fucking hard growing up gay, even if you don't experience much homophobia. It is intrinsically a difficult thing to navigate and eventually accept. Homophobia makes that worse, sure – but the self hatred is often still there regardless.
You have to "come out" over and over and over again, your dating pool is, by definition, much smaller, and you have to be vigilant in public spaces. Things are better than they were but you never know if someone is gonna kick off or start screaming "faggot" at you just for holding hands (never mind kissing) your boyfriend or girlfriend. These things still happen pretty frequently. Both in London and Bristol (liberal cities that I've spent most of my life living in).
Really appreciate your feedback and engagement! And "the worst thing about being gay in the West in 2023 is you're supposed to enjoy it" is a fucking great line hahahahaha.
And Bros is such a good film – I properly love it. Apart from the bit at the end when he sings that country ballad to Aaron (or whatever his name is – the jock). That's a bit too saccharine for me tbh. But apart from that it deals with all these issues deftly and with humour.
Interesting to hear about your experience of sex ed as well. It was just never mentioned (except when other pupils made jokes about it). And I'm not sure why tbh. I don't think anyone was "out" at my secondary school, maybe one guy.
Anyway, thanks for reading!
Stez xxxxxxxxx